[patc]

Just had a call from Vodafone in reply to my multiple e-mails last week regarding v4 for the N80. It seems the Vodafone engineers are claiming they haven't received the firmware from Nokia yet (scratches head) ..

I guess 5-a-dime operators like Vodafone just don't get first priority ..

[bandofbrothers]

have you tried asking the carfone warehouse which some stores have in house nokia repair centres ?

Just a thought.

[ray_s]

Think I've said this before, however I'd be very surprised if Vodafone UK could be bothered to update their variant package for v4 as they couldn't be bothered with their past S60 Nokia's, their 6630 for example is still stuck at a very buggy v2.x.

[getsurfers]

Nokia really need to take charge of FW and kicker every operator hard!

[edwardquan]

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16-Oct-2006
10:03 PM
ray_s wrote:
Think I've said this before, however I'd be very surprised if Vodafone UK could be bothered to update their variant package for v4 as they couldn't be bothered with their past S60 Nokia's, their 6630 for example is still stuck at a very buggy v2.x.

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Oh dear - I'm with Orange at the moment and wanted to change to Vodafone when my contract expires ... and now you've put me right off !

Is there anyway you can insist on a SIM free (unlocked/unbranded) version of the phone when you sign up ?

[ray_s]

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17-Oct-2006
12:20 AM
edwardquan wrote:
Oh dear - I'm with Orange at the moment and wanted to change to Vodafone when my contract expires ... and now you've put me right off !

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I would say that Voda UK's branding is the worse, even more so than Orange IMO. The least branded of the branded would be o2 UK's version and it is also sim free on contract, but you will still be waiting for o2 to release updates, and again sometimes they don't bother.

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17-Oct-2006
12:20 AM
edwardquan wrote:
Is there anyway you can insist on a SIM free (unlocked/unbranded) version of the phone when you sign up ?

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The only way of doing this would be to buy at a retail store, so you can check the handset before you sign.

[patc]

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16-Oct-2006
10:03 PM
ray_s wrote:
have you tried asking the carfone warehouse which some stores have in house nokia repair centres?

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About 5 times. Plus I've taken it to another Nokia-recommended service center. Unfortunately, until Vodafone - or Nokia, depending who you believe - get their finger out, there's nothing they can do as they're only allowed to put Vodafone updates on to a handset from Vodafone.

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16-Oct-2006
10:03 PM
ray_s wrote:
Think I've said this before, however I'd be very surprised if Vodafone UK could be bothered to update their variant package for v4 as they couldn't be bothered with their past S60 Nokia's, their 6630 for example is still stuck at a very buggy v2.x.

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I think you have - I know someone did - and I think that's what prompted my e-mail to Vodafone. I'm just hoping against hope that you're wrong ..

[ray_s]

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17-Oct-2006
08:19 PM
patc wrote:
I think you have - I know someone did - and I think that's what prompted my e-mail to Vodafone. I'm just hoping against hope that you're wrong ..

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As do I...

Maybe if enough people complain they will compile and release their v4 based variant.

I just don't understand how Voda UK can be so complacent when other Voda non-UK handsets more or less have the latest firmware available to them (not talking about the N80 specifically, and thinking about it, not just Voda either).

[bandofbrothers]

i can only advise on what i do when choosing a handset and network.

I know an eyebrow will be raised when I say this , and im sorry to harp on {again...lol}

I go to carfone Warehouse as all their handsets are unlocked , wether you choose a contract or prepay handset.

They just marry up the sim to the card.

Although I believe Vodafone has pulled out their services from carefone, albeit after reading the issues with vodafone I dont think they will miss the 5% ish from vodafone ?

[edwardquan]

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17-Oct-2006
09:09 PM
ray_s wrote:

...

I just don't understand how Voda UK can be so complacent when other Voda non-UK handsets more or less have the latest firmware available to them (not talking about the N80 specifically, and thinking about it, not just Voda either).

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I know this is a Nokia user to user support forum but I think it's good to raise a relevant point here ...

I am with Orange at the moment and to be honest I thought they were terrible - I was going to move and was thinking about Vodafone - however I've now been put off from what people have said about the firmware updates. For me personally O2 has coverage problems in areas where I am so that is a no go. I know there are other vendors but I'd prefer not to go with them for various reasons.

I think this point was raised and touched upon by karim some time ago with reference to the Nokia Software Updater - but it might resurrecting - is there any need for variant phone firmware ?

I don't know enough technically about the firmware, but is it similar to the situation where you used to get customised versions of Internet Explorer on cover CDs which had the branding of whatever company it came with ? If this is the case then the firmware will basically come with all the functionality enabled already - and the bits that aren't supported by a network simply won't work (e.g. the Push To Talk functionality on non Orange networks)

It might be time to ask Nokia to consider supplying only generic phones to networks - it's pretty clear from a lot of the posts here that :

1) This option is the most popular scheme among mobile phone users.
2) The more knowledgeable users have specific problems with the phones which are only addressed in new revisions of the firmware. At the moment the process of fixing this by installing updated firmware is in the hands of the network providers who may delay or not release the new firmware. In essence this is adding an extra step in the process of supporting the customer and adds an additional diagnostic step when Nokia supports the end user - i.e. instead of just asking what version of firmware they are running and the nature of the problem, they have to ask what network they are on - what version of the firmware they are running AND the nature of the problem.
3) With regard to the operator variants - I'm pretty sure Nokia code these - and release them to vendors - I can't imagine the likes of Orange, Vodafone et al have their own coding departments. This means that internally within Nokia there's an extra layer of logistical work that simply would be reduced. This in turn means that the cost of producing new firmwares is reduced as only one version is needed per phone, and also reduce support costs.

I appreciate that there will be Value Added Services that the operators will want to add, however for example with the Orange TV application this is not installed on the phone as it is taken out of the box, and needs to be downloaded afterwards - and would therefore not change under a "one firmware" option.

As far as I can tell at the moment (and please correct me if I am wrong) but the operator variants only really appear to be an opportunity to brand the phone as opposed to provide functional value.

[getsurfers]

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17-Oct-2006
09:57 PM
bandofbrothers wrote:

I go to carfone Warehouse as all their handsets are unlocked , wether you choose a contract or prepay handset.

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Not for all networks they don't

[ray_s]

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17-Oct-2006
10:03 PM
edwardquan wrote:
I don't know enough technically about the firmware, but is it similar to the situation where you used to get customised versions of Internet Explorer on cover CDs which had the branding of whatever company it came with ? If this is the case then the firmware will basically come with all the functionality enabled already - and the bits that aren't supported by a network simply won't work (e.g. the Push To Talk functionality on non Orange networks)

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What you state is more or less true, basically their is the base firmware and the variant package, the product code determines which variant package and thus which firmware is avaible to you. There can be over a 100 different product codes for a Nokia model each with a different variant package required be it generic or branded.

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17-Oct-2006
10:03 PM
edwardquan wrote:
It might be time to ask Nokia to consider supplying only generic phones to networks - it's pretty clear from a lot of the posts here that :

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Can't see this ever happening as the networks purchase the handsets from Nokia in bulk and resell them under their own brand to the end user.

The only way forward is not to purchase Nokia branded handsets or jump ship to another manufacturer in protest as Nokia doesn't seem to be listening unfortunately.

BTW agree with the gist of your post 100%!

[edwardquan]

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18-Oct-2006
01:11 AM
ray_s wrote:

...
Can't see this ever happening as the networks purchase the handsets from Nokia in bulk and resell them under their own brand to the end user.

The only way forward is not to purchase Nokia branded handsets or jump ship to another manufacturer in protest as Nokia doesn't seem to be listening unfortunately.

BTW agree with the gist of your post 100%!

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Well we have to examine why it wouldn't happen because to my mind it makes good business as well as customer service sense all round as outlined previously.

If all the handsets were generic then the networks would still purchase them in bulk and still resell them to the end customer - I can honestly say I have never decided or been tempted to change network from looking at the advertising on a phone.

Operators may use the argument that their customers might use their phone on another network, but if you are on a contract then you pretty much get a new phone anyway when you start a contract, and if you are a Pay As You Go customer then you have to effectively pay for the cost of the handset anyway (or at least pay a higher one-off amount than a contract customer). If it's a case of locking a phone to a particular network, I would actually question whether or not (depending on how it's technically designed) whether a customised variant version of the firmware is required - this could very simply be done from a programming perspective with a simple switch (software !) that determined what network it is "locked" to - all other functionality would remain as per the generic version.

I'm not sure what you mean by not buying Nokia branded handsets - whether you mean not buying Nokia at all or just buying the generic version with a package, but if you mean jumping ship in terms of not buying Nokia that's a bit of an overkill - I have had a Panasonic and have used a Sony Ericsson and Motorola, and the user interface on the Nokia beats any other phone hands down on functionality and ease of use (Oh how I often wish I had the patent on designing the user interface on the Nokias !). Also it doesn't solve the root issue - the Panasonic x70 phone I had not only exhibited reliability problems (which I've not yet had with any Nokia yet touch wood), but it also featured customised Orange firmware !

If you mean not buying operator branded variants of a phone - to be honest I didn't know you had a choice ! I have tended to upgrade my phone at an Orange shop, and unsurprisingly they have always given me a branded variant of the phone I wanted - I will try this at a Carphone Warehouse next time !

Also as a customer I have a choice of moving networks, however since hearing that other networks may offer the phone, but delay on authorising their particular variant of the firmware, I don't feel this is a feasible choice at all, and the only other choice is to buy a generic one which costs 374 GBP (for a black N80) - and then to pay for a contract/Pay As You Go scheme on top ... which is a lot of money !

I think Nokia is listening, but a subject like this (and to a lesser extent bringing in the Nokia Software Updater) represents a major policy shift for Nokia as a company which could affect their sales drastically - therefore whatever decision they do make has to be examined and re-examined in great depth - logically such a decision should lead to lower support and development costs etc. etc. not only for Nokia, but the network operators also - but if none of the operators decide to buy Nokia phones as a result, then both Nokia and we the customers lose out.

Having said this I feel that Nokia are and will be pretty much being forced to make a decision of sorts. Orange have stopped offering the N80 as an available phone (as a matter of interest they never released this phone on a free upgrade policy as with previous phones - there was always a 49.99 fee to discourage people from upgrading), and in all likelihood this will probably mean that Orange won't offer any of the other phones in the N Series range either. If other network providers follow suit Nokia will have to demonstrate that they have a viable solution to the teething issues that users have been experiencing ...

[getsurfers]

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18-Oct-2006
01:54 AM
edwardquan wrote:
Orange have stopped offering the N80 as an available phone (as a matter of interest they never released this phone on a free upgrade policy as with previous phones - there was always a 49.99 fee to discourage people from upgrading)

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I only got my N80 as it was free to upgrade (free handset as been with them for 10 years). Was going for 6280, but sales guy said they had all been recalled on Orange due to serious problems with FW and not to touch with a barge pole on Orange.

Ironic eh?

[edwardquan]

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18-Oct-2006
10:14 AM
getsurfers wrote:

I only got my N80 as it was free to upgrade (free handset as been with them for 10 years). Was going for 6280, but sales guy said they had all been recalled on Orange due to serious problems with FW and not to touch with a barge pole on Orange.

Ironic eh?

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Are you on Orange ? You lucky person ! I never get offered stuff like that - when I threaten to leave Orange instead of asking me what they can do to make me stay they show me the door - lol

[edwardquan]

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18-Oct-2006
11:25 AM
edwardquan wrote:
Are you on Orange ? You lucky person ! I never get offered stuff like that - when I threaten to leave Orange instead of asking me what they can do to make me stay they show me the door - lol

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I had to reply to this because the edit option has disappeared - I can't remember how long I have been with Orange, but I am on band 5 of their upgrade path so I think I don't get charged for upgrades after 6-9 months instead of the full year.

[getsurfers]

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18-Oct-2006
11:49 AM
edwardquan wrote:

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18-Oct-2006
11:25 AM
edwardquan wrote:
Are you on Orange ? You lucky person ! I never get offered stuff like that - when I threaten to leave Orange instead of asking me what they can do to make me stay they show me the door - lol

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I had to reply to this because the edit option has disappeared - I can't remember how long I have been with Orange, but I am on band 5 of their upgrade path so I think I don't get charged for upgrades after 6-9 months instead of the full year.

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Is that call package band, or you pay something each month? I think the latter was called Premier, and was £10/month but when they killed it off they offered high call tariff users this for a reduced price or free.

I had it (managed to get free), then they pulled it. Was really good as you got through to a real persion straight away, rather than "press 1 if it's a monday...."

[ray_s]

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18-Oct-2006
01:54 AM
edwardquan wrote:
If you mean not buying operator branded variants of a phone - to be honest I didn't know you had a choice ! I have tended to upgrade my phone at an Orange shop, and unsurprisingly they have always given me a branded variant of the phone I wanted - I will try this at a Carphone Warehouse next time !

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When a handset has just been released normally CPW and even Orange branded shops have been known to sell generic Nokia handsets, CPW will normally offer generic handsets that the operator does not offer, only seen this on new contracts though.

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18-Oct-2006
01:54 AM
edwardquan wrote:
Also as a customer I have a choice of moving networks, however since hearing that other networks may offer the phone, but delay on authorising their particular variant of the firmware, I don't feel this is a feasible choice at all, and the only other choice is to buy a generic one which costs 374 GBP (for a black N80) - and then to pay for a contract/Pay As You Go scheme on top ... which is a lot of money !

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The balloon seems to have burst in mainland europe regarding handset subsidy, some networks are not subsidising the cost of a new handset for new contract customer and upgraders, so the customer ends up paying the full price. I think it won't be long before it happens in the UK, in which case I certainly will not pay for a operator locked and branded handset when I could probably get a generic one for less.

[edwardquan]

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18-Oct-2006
10:14 AM
getsurfers wrote:

I only got my N80 as it was free to upgrade (free handset as been with them for 10 years). Was going for 6280, but sales guy said they had all been recalled on Orange due to serious problems with FW and not to touch with a barge pole on Orange.

Ironic eh?

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Yeah that's one word you could use to describe it - after hearing all the complaints from other Orange users you might think that the problem might be perhaps due to other problems .. like maybe the Orange firmware ? ;-)

Out of interest why go for the 6280 ? The N70 is more fully featured and seems to be a better phone all round ...

[edwardquan]

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18-Oct-2006
09:35 PM
getsurfers wrote:
Is that call package band, or you pay something each month? I think the latter was called Premier, and was £10/month but when they killed it off they offered high call tariff users this for a reduced price or free.

I had it (managed to get free), then they pulled it. Was really good as you got through to a real persion straight away, rather than "press 1 if it's a monday...."

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No nothing like that - I am a "bog standard" Orange user apart from the fact that I have been with them for ages - I think with Orange a customer has upgrade bands which entitle them to earlier upgrades (i.e. before the full year is up from the last upgrade) depending on how long you have been with them. I have to go through the "Press 1 if you have an query with an Orange mobile, 2 if Broadband" which does get annoying !