[stoneowl]

Just before posting this message, I saw a few comments about N97, and I can understand exactly the disappointment and frustration these users are, because for the past 4 months, these are the agonies I experienced.

Want to reiterate, over the past 9 years, I only use Nokia phones, impressed with each phone that I change, the functionality, the speed, their thoughtfulness for users, reliability. All until I made the ultimate mistake of changing to a 5800XM

Just want to ask, how did the development of the S60 5th edition go about. Because I still feel that each screen, each module is designed by a seperate person.  What do I mean?

For example, Writing a SMS has a different layout for different language. Writing in English and other language for example, different screen [of course I notice there is only left and right button for English and 'Up down left right' buttons for other languages.  The Green Tick placement is different.

I don't know how other Nokia users feel, but being in an area whereby we do use multiple language to write and reply SMS, this is terribly irritating.

Why am I irritated? Simple reason being, in the other phones [eg 6280], simple, phones give better User Interface [UI], consistent, functional, well thought out. And here suppose to be a new phone, and the functionality has gone back equivalent of 5 years ago.

Guess these modules are written by 2 different person, and they both have never shared on how to improve the module together. Plus I guess the author of these modules come from an area whereby they will only write SMS in one language only and never experience how users need to switch between languages, or even multiple languages within 1 SMS.

I can expect people helping Nokia to explain.. oh.. it's a new software on S60 5 EDITION. Things are new, lots of development needed, untested. What I cannot understand is, even if they just had followed their previous successful formula of UI, what could be wrong? Just because it is a new software, functionality has to suffer a total loss?

Also the excuse of 'oh, you must understand, this is touch based, and it is different'. I find it one of the worst excuse. Touch based means more intuitive. So Why can't it just be the same level of functionality, with only having to touch. Instead, they come up with new formats which they try to be creative with their UI and failed miserably.

Challenge for the dear people at Nokia who did the UI for 5800 [and now N97 I guess since they use the same software].

1) Select a user in your phonebook and prepare to send him/her a SMS.

2) Write a SMS in English, but suddenly you need to key in 10 characters in Chinese.

3) Click on the Green Tick.

4) Stare hard at the USER name, and can you tell me the mobile number you are sending out to? Do you know you are sending out to the correct number if the user had 2 mobile numbers, one landline number, one office number, one fax number in the phone book. Stare hard and tell me it has never occured to you , you may just need to see the number beside the USER name, just to make sure it is the correct number. 

Challenge 2

1) Key in your best friend number to send him/her a SMS.

2) Send out the SMS.

3) Look at the Sent box.

4) See your best friend's name? NO!!!!!... you see your best friend's number only? BUt hey, wait a minute.. I also have his number in the PhoneBook. Why do I see the number here?

5) Oh, of course if I wanted to see the name displayed out, I will have to select his name from the phonebook, select send SMS to him, only then will I see the name displayed in the SENT box.

6) Yes yes, I can see this is a new feature, because in the other phones, with actual keypads, this has never been seen before. Numbers keyed in are recogznised by the names if they are in the PHONEBOOK list.

Challenge 3

1) Select Adaptive Search functionality.

2) Select on your PhoneBook

3) Select on the bar to search for Steven [or anyone that starts with a S]

4) Wow, all the letters pop up for you to select the key. Yes, it is a fantastic idea.

5) Ok, you found your friend's name and called him.

6) Ok.. Now go to SMS, and you can't remember his number. Select the search bar.

7) Please don't tell me you don't see the difference in the screen. Coz most likely you will see that the alphabet ends with R, and you will have to switch to the 2nd page to find the S.

8) Please be honest to us, and to yourself. Do you find that intuitive? Do you enjoy going to the second page in the SMS mode, but you get the full list for the phonebook.

9) Or is it because it is possible that different modules are done by different person who don't bother to review and see if they could have programmed it consistently?

[stoneowl]

-- Continue

Challenge 4

1) SMS a nice little message for your best friend

2) You want to key in AC97 because you want to tell your friend this is the de-facto for motherboards nowadays.

3) So you key in 1,1 to get ab, you change it to AC using predictive text[you see the predictive text underline below the AC]. You hold on the 9 key [to get the number 9]

4) Guess what you get? cc9 . What on earth is cc9.. I thought I key in and selected ac. why did it change to cc? Did I want to change it to cc?

5) Has the developer honestly thought about it that when you decide to add in a number by holding on to the key longer, it means the user wants to add in a number after the text you just keyed in. Why be 'EXTRA' creative, when in previous phone models [even the lowest range of phones from Nokia, this is already an existing feature].

6) Or did the developer not bother to see what was in the previous phone's functionality, or even forgot that this is a functionality

Challenge 5

1) Key in a SMS

2) Pick a word using predictive text.

3) Yes, select through the list of words using the # key

4) You saw the word but was too fast and missed the word.

5) What do you do now?

6) In previous simple phones, you just use 'PREVIOUS'

7) In the 5800, even simpler.. Just delete the word and retype, reselect

8) Worst scenario, select through the whole list of possible words because that is what will be displayed in the drop down box.

9) Simple "PREVIOUS" would have done the trick. Instead, go one big round.

10) Guess the developer of this module must have been a very patient person, or just love keying in things over and over again.

 Challange 5

1) What I don't understand it is Mark/Unmark functionality

2)Oh.. you've got 600 songs in your 5800. [of course, it's a music phone]

3) I want to share 39 different songs from the list of to send.

4) Guess what, I need to select Options, Mark to get one tick on each item. That is 3 steps to mark one song

5) May I recommend our dear Nokia S60 VER 5 developers a very useful functionality call a BOX, and marking it just need to check [TICK] in case of different interpretation the box to say I want to select the song

6) Oh wait a minute, This is seen in other NOKIA phones already. This is known as Check Box. 

7) What I don't understand, 5800 is a touch phone. Wouldn't the selection using check box enhance the touch and select experience.

8) Instead, some developer decided that you need to TOUCH OPTIONS, SELECTION, MARK.

9) To share a funny joke with the readers. In simple phone like the 6280, 6200 etc... they have this really fun feature of SELECT BOX, Mark All, Inverse Mark.

10) Don't NOKIA developers feel that marking CHECK BOXES is more intuitive? Or do they think TOUCHING 3 times for something that can be done in ONE STEP their idea of fun with 5800?

11) And please don't comment there are external program like the wonderful "The Pencil" , which I am already using it.

12) I thank the author of "The Pencil" for being so helpful, thoughtful and smart. But what seems like a simple function that used to exist for other NOKIA phone, has to be coded by someone else, added on as an extra software.

13) My question is WHY is it like that?

14) Does that mean that Nokia just want to give an empty phone, and let users download programs just to make it have some basic necessity functionality?

15) Then inform all users of such plans, rather than promote itself being an intuitive, user centric company. 

16) Maybe I do not understand the troubles of developer Maybe it is beyond the capability of the programmer or the software in use.

[stoneowl]

-- Continue

Challenge 6

1) Has anyone notice how big and friend the alphanumeric keypad for SMS is? [admist all the inconsistency of different language]

2) Big nice buttons for us to press. Nice

3) Think the developer just like nice big buttons to press on the screen. But wait a minute, I need to SMS, and I'm in the SMS mode.

4) Look at the display of SMS. 4 lines [use small fonts and you get 5 or 6]. Wonderful, I get to see 6 lines maximum, and but WOW!!! I get BIG NICE numeric keypad to press - something that took up 3 QUARTERS of my wonderful huge over 3" display screen.

5) Maybe the developers felt, why would you want to key in so many lines of text. All you need is nice big buttons to press.

6) Maybe some will argue, this is to make it friendly, nice  and easy to key in. Or, there's limitations to how big or small the buttons can be.

7) True, but hey.. look at the calculator layout. Yah I agree, there are some buttons which are different from the alphanumeric keypad for SMS, but look the layout and size. And look at the number of lines of display.. Don't you think that you would like to see that much of your text [if you had key in 160 characters?]

8) Or would you rather write your message, missed out something in the front of your message , press the NICE GREEN TICK BUTTON, see it displayed on a full page, select the area, then go into the TINY TEENY WEENY space, position the cursor with those NICE HUGE LEFT RIGHT [UP DOWN buttons also if you hare in different language mode} to that area which you need to change on that tiny text area.

9) Doesn't it feel good?

8) If you tell me the calculator is functional at that sizing using the keypad, what is so different from SMS texting?

9) If I know better, the keypad layouts and sizing should be interchanged between the functionality.

I guess, no one at Nokia will ever bother to read these. , or even admit to seeing all these comments.

Some can brush these comments aside.. "We can't please everyone", or "These are just wishlist. We have to look at the big picture", or "Customers will never be satisfied" or "Don't worry, they COULD be included in the next FIRMWARE update". 

Or all they need to do is to believe once again  that " we design phones to be used and enjoyed by everyone" and not "my developers has to do this this way , so be it"

I was curious about other touch phones, so I took a look at the various SamSang a song that was LeallyGood.  First time user of their phone, and I was enjoying the intiutiveness. Guess that is what our dear Nokia developers lack, the "Human Touch". After all , they are the largest phone company in the world. Maybe they will bother about their customers and supporters, fans when they drop to being the 2nd, 3rd ,4th or last

But at least I must still admit, speed wise, 5800XM is still quite acceptable [when compared to the N96 which I made the mistake of buying in replacement to my 5800XM]. Imagine how I feel, to get 2 phones that gives nothing but headaches, heartaches, being rediculed when people see you using a Nokia phone. Double regret within 6 months. Have you waited 3 secs to respond to your selection. And the number of reboots, hanged up application, unresponsiveness..

Anyway, I'll leave my gripe about N96 till a later stage.  It' s not a problem with symbian S60 V5 or V3 or whatever programs.  It is a lack of "HUMAN" in the company that is causing all the problems.

Why am I frustrated. All I see solutions around is " Oh!!! Have you upgraded to the latest firmware", "Do a *#7780*, do a *#7470*, if you can't solve it, send it to CUstomer Care. Same solution to different problems? Ever think about the root of the problem?

Firmwares frequency. Too much and nothing gets changed except "stability issues, better camera quality".  What a joke, you get a phone with 3.2megapixel inbuilt... and the first pictures you take is horrible. Then with updates in firmware, the pictures gets better. Why on earth was it first released with horrible quality pictures and improved with updates? Is camera function something new for the company? Or no one bothered to test the product before launch?

Or wait for 6 months for a huge update [to clear 4 dozen faults, problems,]. In the meantime, the company is trying to say "Oh well, too bad you bought a reduced function phone. If you want the phone to work like a real phone, please wait till we accumulated enough problems from feedbacks, my developers has time to rectify the problems and we will release the updates when the time is right. If you cannot wait, please buy our latest phone [for eg. N97], which solves some of the problems you are facing right now, but has 3 dozen of new problems"

By the way, I've been to Nokia Customer Care since the 1st week of buying the phone. I've already visited Nokia Customer Care 6 times over 6 months. Not too much, about once a month. I guess that's quite acceptable to most people? Or is it?

I really wonder, what phones do the developers at Nokia use if they need to purchase a phone. And I mean purchase like everyone else. And I'm really interested to know what phone does the boss of Nokia uses. If he had seen all these problems, would he use it still.

[stoneowl]

Just want to end off by saying

Yes,  I've updated to the latest firmware "which I literally check everyday hoping for some solution by Nokia to solve my phone problems".. I've resetted my phone at least once a month, and I've visited the Nokia Care Centre about the same frequency only to get more heartaches with replies like

Because I can forsee a lot of helpful forummers will be suggesting the same thing. Update, reset, send to customer care.

"We've change some parts, we tried out best, this is the best we can do. Have you made a backup? You may lose all your data if we do an upgrade, sign here"

And when you get back the phone, switch it on, find the same problems, you get asked "Do you want to leave your phone here for servicing again? Please take a number at the counter and queue up. It may take another 3 - 5 days".

How will you feel taking back a phone from the counter, to redeposit again within 2 minutes. I don't know about you, but I feel fantastic. Looking at the number of screaming customers in the queue, I guess I'm not alone. So at least I now understand why they say having a mobile phone is fun fun fun.

[greycounciller]

Brilliant post!

I have a N79 S60 Ver 3 which does the some of same silly things.I came from SE to Nokia and my first tryout was the 5800XM. I sent it back and got a SE W715. One feature I loved in SE phones was the ability to change a word from say all lower case to all capitals or just  capital first word. All after the word is typed. No such facility with Nokia.I thought I just didn't understand Nokia phones but the V5 touchscreen just doesn't seem to of been thought out properly. All that double tapping etc.......It's slightly similar with the N79 and I guess many other S60 phones.Challenges 1,2,4 &5 seem to be the same.Along with that, it seems different series Nokias work different from others. Though the SE UI is uniform, I challenge anyone to try texting from an SE to see how it should be done.

[alex79uk]

Haha what a good rant! That must have taken ages. I just don't have the patience and usually end up posting a sweary 5 line shout. Hehe.

Anyway, I cant' say I read every word, but I agree with challenge 4. It's the same on the N97, and a REAL PAIN IN THE a$$. It happens all the time. Not just with numbers. Say I type the word NO or something, then decide to add an excalmation mark after it. Instead of coming out as NO! it will just switch NO to ON before adding it, so I get ON!. Which is ridiculous. Yeah, that's not the best example, but it happens all the time as p*sses me off!!

Message Edited by alex79uk on 13-Jul-2009 10:40 AM

[stoneowl]

Oh yes, it took me about 4 hours to write, and it takes about 2 secs for our dear Nokia to say "we'll look into it and see if they can be considered", but it took me 3 months to try and get use to it, but gave up.

That in our context is sales talk, meaning, if you want all these.. either you buy a phone that has that or leave us alone. We can't be taking everyone's suggestion.

Just came in to see if anyone agreed with me, and was popped with the opinion poll. I love the last line, "would I recommend Nokia to my relatives and friends".

I decided to be honest, and didn't finish the opinion poll. Afterall, so what if I did tell the truth. Does it change anything?

Looking at the title, do you think I can give an honest opinion or make up the number of "there will always be some groups that are not satisfied. Negligable numbers"

[delboyg]

Brilliant post Stoneowl,

I came back to Nokia after a bad time with Win Mo touchscreen device - funny enough, the inconsistent interface was one of my biggest issues with that phone.  I then bought N95 1st week of launch and have been using that until I got the N97 1st day of launch.

I know there would be a learning curve in changing to S60v5 so a borrowed a 5800XM for a week just to see if I'd get the hang of it, I seen the same niggles in the SMS apps that you've experienced but thought the 5800XM interface was like a trial run for Nokia, and as it wasn't my phone I didn't go too much further than SMS and calls for the week.

However, I've now had the N97 for nearly 4 weeks and have to say the items you've pointed out are so frustrating, that I've already started dreaming about my next phone & I don't think it will be a Nokia!

I wholeheartedly agree with your posts and I wish that someone high up in Nokia reads that and tries for themselves.  The ONLY saving grace is that I know the N95. was a dog when I 1st bought it, but after 3 firmware upgrades it was working like a dream and is still functional after many drops and much abuse.

All of the above issues (and the extra bugs on the N97) can be fixed with firmware, but I do get you point, 'it shouldn't be like this', especially when the competition is snapping at your heels.  I fail to understand why Nokia have taken so many backward steps with S60v5 especially after the 6 months they've had to get it right.

By the way, did you find how to edit the predictive text word list?  I have "vo", "vo" then "to" in my selections list, how frustrating is that? Come up in every text I write.

Come on Nokia - you can do better that this, these are major bugs for loyal money spending Nokia fans, sort out the software or I'll become another customer lost for ever. 

[stoneowl]

thanks guys for taking the time to read about my rants, and i can see I may not be alone in feeling the frustration.

Believe me, I think I'm one of those that takes time to put up with all the learning curves when it comes to phones. But this is one phone that I still have not been able to master even though i send about 40 SMS, call about 15 people everyday,

I really don't think it's about learning curve. Just take one fun example. The phonebook. Access it via your menu [not via onscreen], select your favorite person, dial his/her number by hitting the Green Button ... Presto!!! The call is made. Finish the call. Off you go.. 

Guess what... your PhoneBook entry is still there. Go to your menu, you see that super irriating circle beside the icon to say the program is still running?

I've made my call. I'm done with it. I pressed the GREEN BUTTON  to make a call via phone book. Why the hell do you still need to keep that program running in the background.. It is not as if the phone is powerful to handle multitasks. Even if it is to proof multitask, make it worth the reputation.

This is sometimes what we in the industry call,  short-sighted designer, non-intiative program manager, blind follower programmers, and the worst is the usability testing team. Must be in a rush to go home.

I saw how they test the phones via stress tests, pocket tests, bending test.  Guess they really need to, because with the frustration they give the users, its a good way to show the physical quality of the phone.

Do you think the lower people at Nokia will show the feedbacks up the chain? Makes everyone in the company look bad. It's really easier to just say " Oh well, must be from a competitor bad mouthing", or " We've got 20 million satisfied customer, what is 10 disgrunted users".

Frankly, if I had the chance to get back my 6300, I would. Nice phone, with everything working right from day 1, no headaches, nice feel, well thought out.  From a 3210, 6250, 6280, 6300, N85, 5800xm and N96 ( N85 changes onwards was over 1 and a half years.... Regret going down the N-series, the symbian revolution .

Oh the predictive text problem..

I was really tempted to say "Have you upgraded to the latest firmware?", "Maybe try to do a *#7780", if unable to solve, do a back up and do a *#7370#  ,. If all else fails, send it to Nokia care centre.  Just read the posts on the first page of this discussion.  Every other post has this few lines, so much so it is a joke.

Might as well put a universal STICKY thread. Oh oh... sorry, it is up there already.

Back to your problem.. it's something that people don't really notice.

eg. your want your predictive text to show TO because there is really no word call VO.  key in 86. You get VO, change it to TO, space bar, 86 again, it'll show VO, change it to TO.  Be strong, carry on, repeat the steps again and again. On the 5th or 6th time, you key in 86, it'll show TO instead of VO as the first word .

I want to think that they actually put in some self learning AI thinggy, but I still have no idea how did VO make it inside the English dictionary. But afterall, I'm not a smart person, maybe VO does have some meaning which a common person like me have no part in understanding.

cheers 

[delboyg]

Stoneowl,

Your posts are entertaining, big grin here until I look at that phone!

I have to say though, you are lucky, 5800MX has faults and poor software implementation, N97 has all the same + added features with more poor implementation!  Really sad, I really did think that the 5800MX touch interface was a first run thing, never would have believed they would keep the same for the flagship of the line.

The thing is, it's not right that NOKIA should release a phone with so many bugs, although I've now seen it so many times that I'm beginning to loose the faith, I should have realised after my friend bought the 8800 and wondered why they supplied an extra battery - soon became obvious that even the 2 batteries couldn't make it through the day and the amount of lost business call meant the phone had to be thrown out within 3 months.

I don't want to sound like a NOKIA basher, I know all phones have some issue out there, but it does seem like they've lost the plot that got them to No.1 in the first place. Now, apart from the build quality of the N97, they are moving into mediocre area of the smart phone market, while maintaining the premium pricing.  I mean, why should we be jumping through hoops and waiting for firmware updates to use our phones?   What will all the poor reviews do for the marketing of the Nokia brand?

More than ever, Nokia needs to be jumping on their programmers to get products that delivery a quality user experience, but at the moment it seems like the lazy software developers are running the show.

Maybe the split up of Nokia development between Nokia / E series & N series is just not working so well, looks like no sharing of data between the completing departments, and some are ready to see the others go down in flames and taking Nokia customers with them.

I will try your suggestion about my 'vo' problem (did you note the the vo is 1st AND 2nd entry before 'to') and see if I can get rid of it, but question to Nokia - why should I have to do this to send an SMS?? Never seen on any Nokia I have used before.

[ivone]

Great post man. I am also fed up with Nokia ignorance. 

That said, I am ready to switch to other manufacturer, ANY suggestions? What phone?

I heard that SE is good.. I like: WiFi, Good camera (even at night), BT and touch screen if possible. (Preffer symbian  for OS)

Not much to ask for or is it?

TIA

[stoneowl]

i wish to say that if Nokia had not just ignore the problems, or solve problems by just firmware or new models, it is still a nice little phone company that i grew up with.

I think any brand would be good if you love the company, gives good phone, good support and good quality

[stoneowl]

decided to do a bit more homework and surfed for nokia discussions around

happened to find the discussion group for nokia developers..

read a lot of interesting things, even had a lot of suggestions on the unified coding, templates, suggestions on how to improve the user experience, bugs found out and sharing on how to solve them. Really amazed at the wiki information available there.

Only question i had was, it was all listed out, even developers suggestions on how to improve [along with screen shots, specification, layout design]. But, but, but.. seems like it's more for suggestion, and no real effort to incorporate.

I saw some errors found by developers, shared out and even solutions made, with one line saying that this error will be solved in the next release of firmware release.

I have come to the conclusion that they do respond, but only to outright errors which will cripple the machine. Improvements, are optional I guess. 

what i noticed is there was active moderation of the forum, coz i see how some people tried to air their problems there, but was advised to come to this forum as this is for users, and not developers. But in their discussion board, there seems to be very little reflection of the points on how improvements can be made, how developers can solve problems.

Oh well, my purpose I must say is not to bash up the company.

I am hoping with all the airing of grievences, problems, problems get highlighted. Highlighted so much so that it gets noticed. I know, some of the senior forummers said, if it is to be reflected to the company, we should be using "Contact Us" at the corner of the forum. 

Guess what, I've tried. I got a very wonderful email from the service staff whom was very patient and helpful. And she highlighted that "IF THEY ARE RELEVANT ISSUES, THEY WOULD BE ESCALATED UPWARDS". 

But I will have to take it, as long as problems still exist, either these are not "RELEVANT ISSUES, and had not been escalated.

Or ignored.

[stoneowl]

One more point after reading and reading available solutions, suggestions from helpful forummers and nokia enthusiasts all around the world, can I humbly make a suggestion.

I don't know much about the culture of the world,but I would assume that replying someone's post needs a bit of sensitivity and understanding.

Eg : ManInNeedOfHelp  wrote : Dear All,   please help me. My 5800 is blacking out, hanging every half a day. The Wifi is dropping connection every 2 mins.

HelpfulForumer A: Funny, I don't have the problem with my 5800.

(good for you HelpfulForumerA, glad to know you don't have the same problem. If you had, you'll be the ManInNeedOfHelp instead of HelpfulForumerA. Can you imagine recieving such a reply being helpful)

HelpfulForumer B: Have you updated to the latest firmware? If you have, and the problem still exists, try reset via .,........ (you know, the usual codes)

I admit, HelpfulForumerB would most likely be more helpful.  Maybe we should just call it the Universal Procedure, so that HelpfulForumer C, D and E won't have to retype the same methods.

[kavi6233]

Hi, I even have the N97 and N82. Am keeping the N82 and am waiting for the SonyEricsson Satio. Try a look! Nokia is going down by ignoring its users. The Satio has capacitive instead of resistive! Try to take a look for better specs than **bleep** N97 and 5800xm.

[au_n97_user]

---

kavi6233 wrote:
. The Satio has capacitive instead of resistive!

---

Don't believe the hype that capacitive is better that resistive.  A GOOD resisitve screen beats the restrictions of capacitive every time.

Examples:

Cold weather - need naked fingers to use capacitive - BRRRRRRRRRRRRR - not always nice

Manicured hands - I can't use a capacitive screen with any degree of accuracy

Asian and Arabic character sets - no character recognition possible with capacitive

Capacitive technology has limitations and it is not more accurate than a good resistive screen.

Fancy, yes - practical in the real world - not so much.

[stoneowl]

I still believe our agenda here is not to promote other product, or pull customers away via compelling examples. 

My initial agenda was hopefully to create some awareness to the company  via some of the company people to take note of the dropping standards, lowered quality, or even just forgotten the stuff and their loyal fans that propelled them to be the biggest.

Having said that, I notice quite a few who zealously defend their phones against those who promote a 'supposedly better' phone. I will say, to each his/her own. Coz ultimately the user is the one who holds the phone to do whatever the phone was meant to do.

We are talking about a mature market. Maybe 10 years ago, it was easier to please the customer with polyphonic ringtones. But as the users mature, and the onslaught of 'smartphones', 'business phones', leisure phones, camera phones, there should not be a regression, rather improvement by leaps and bound. That is what I am griping about.

Simple, yet essential things that use to function properly, don't scrape them just because the program manager feels "I don't use them, so I think no one will use them". Don't give up quality for  introduction of product to the market.  Would the designing team love to work on 386 machines, or would they rather use at least a i7 to work with?  

Well, it's the same for us? If we had wanted a 3210 [which I swear is the most durable and efficient phone I ever had, and surprising still working perfecly], we would have bought the simple phones. But when we get a mid-range to higher end phone, at least I do not expect to feel cheated with a nice cover, big screen, but is barely a phone fit to be proudly seen with. 

If the team at the company feel honestly cannot accept certain standards ,  please don't make the end users, consumers who pay hard earned money to buy the product. 

Or just put it simply, will you get fired if your top management sees these phones with inferior quality? Or will they accept it as "oh well, can't be helped"?  I'm not asking that the phone drive my car, I just want to call, text, take pictures, view videos and picture, listen to music [which explained why I bought the phone to do all these] and be proud that I have the phone. 

Definitely not to sulk at one corner just because I bought a phone that was meant to do all that, but end up still trying to make it work properly. I am an early adopter, that is why I've waited 4 months after purchase to kick up some awareness? Why? Coz I could have designed, coded,  tested and implemented a ERP system to run a factory. [of course my team is about 12 people].  And since the company has released other models,  products since, that would mean, they had enough time to think about existing users.

[delboyg]

I hear you Stoneowl,

I have to say that I share your disappointment, it's frustrating that your learn to use a new phone and they removed or changed features that you would expect to have stayed the same.  I'm sure your usability issues will be worked out with more and more firmware releases.

But a lot of what is posted on this site as 'bugs' are really implementation issues. a case in point that might help you..

The unlock switch, there are separate setting for screen blanking timeout and screen lock and by default these are set for the screen to blank 1st then after the screen lock will kick in. If you press the unlock slider while the screen is blanked then you are really locking it, hence it has to be pressed again to unlock!

The think is, there is no way the user can tell if the screen is locked or blanked out, this is purely poor implementation from Nokia, put a screen saver on and the issue that has so many users complaining would be fixed - I can't really blame the users either, I was caught out with it too.

I too have spent a long time waiting for a phone that matched my requirements, so now I have one I would prefer that these issues were fixed, rather than jumping to the next latest and greatest where I know I'll face another load of issues, they may be different but they will be there all the same.

Come on Nokia...  You CAN do better.

[stoneowl]

hey hey.. thanks for taking time to read.

 I never said it was bugs. I just say they forgot to find out how useful some old things are, before they drop it for other new things But point taken, which I hope other readers do also. Bugs or implementation problems are sometimes unavoidable. But as my team's rule is, if you make a mistake once, it's pretty much ok. But if you continue to make the same mistake, you are making an **bleep** out of yourself and me. 

anyway, the lock, or blank out screen i sort of lived with it, but just stopping the auto-lock and make it a habit to lock. Found a software [ and I must give credit from some kind hearted, smart, thoughtful programmer whom coded the possibility of using one of the keys to double press it to lock, or use the usual side lock key], It even came along with the car-alarm unlock and lock sound, so it is pretty cool.

Again, my point being, it took someone with heart for the users, to come up with little nifty program given out free, eg. The Pencil, the unlock program.  That's what I would love to see the company become.

Or again, like what you say, a little screen save [which you could have animated gif for the older phones, but not now, which I don't really understand why]. A time bar would have been nice [which again, I also installed the time bar software]..

Oh ok, ok, they said it is to be Green, save the earth,so everything black out. But I think that's only the 5800 only.. The rest still works the same [ or I could be wrong. All new phones now just black out when locked?].. As far as I know, I love the N85''s OLED way of showing date and time as screensave [btw, that's the only thing I like about the phone after the the countless trips to the nokia care centre]. Cost me $800++ to just see a OLED screen..

Oh yes, before I end, let me share a joke. I was reading other post about 5800, when I saw someone asking for help in not sending 5 sms as a MMS because sms is free whereas it costs to send as MMS.

Some senior was kind enough to reply, there was no way around it. Why? Only the company knows. That is a perfect answer. But his/her next line was a bit uncalled for.

He/she wrote " personally I don't find it a issue because I never send an SMS longer than 5 SMS. Would use email instead".

Yes yes. it's not an issue to you, but this poor chap is asking for advice, you could have been nice and just tell him nope, can't be done. I'm sure he has a liking and reason to SMS more than 5 texts each time. Let him, not say you don't see it as an issue.

Maybe it's precisely this type of attitude that the program designers/testers/coders or whatever they call them  in Nokia had that is creating all these confusion, frustrations.  The " I don't see it as a problem, why should you?"

Yes.. let's all chant.. Come on Nokia.. you CAN do better..

What's the company's motto? Has it changed? 

[dwiddis]

Hey can I ask where you got the time bar software from as I really miss that too.Thanks